Virtual Roundtable: "Star Wars - The Rise of Skywalker"

It has been a strange couple of decades for Star Wars fans.

There is no doubt that the original trilogy (A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi) changed Hollywood forever. The first three movies are generally well-liked (Metacritic gave them scores of 90, 82 and 58, respectively - people don't like Ewoks, apparently) and, without question, they stand as benchmarks in the pantheon of pop culture.

It is commonly believed that George Lucas had originally planned out a nine-movie saga, which would be released in three separate trilogies. In the early 2000s, George and Lucasfilm gave us three prequels, which each have some value, despite being widely panned and mocked by audiences (Metacritic didn't care for them, either, scoring them 51, 54 and 68). 

Disney bought Lucasfilm in 2012, gradually and ultimately bumping Lucas out of the picture and taking the reins to the final trilogy of movies. And spin-off movies. And animated series. And Disney+ shows. Heaven knows how many films and series there will be when Disney is said and done? It's a great time to be a fan of the franchise - you can't throw a thermal detonator without hitting something in the Star Wars universe. But it has also been a tumultuous time for the franchise. With so much content being released, Disney's ouster of Lucas has resulted in scattered direction (literally) and uneven production. (In particular, having two different directors direct the final three movies has caused a bit of contention among fans.) Another point of interest is the difference between critical reception of these movies in comparison to fan scores.

Rotten Tomatoes: Scores, Controversy and Confusing Comparisons

Rotten Tomatoes is not my favorite website because of allegations of score censoring to protect movies like Captain Marvel and accusations of intentional review bombing by critics to hurt movies like Joker. With that in mind, let's take a look at how critics ranked Star Wars' nine "trilogy" movies:

The chart above, provided by the Rotten Tomatoes Facebook page, shows the nine movies in order of theatrical release. We see general praise for the original trilogy (including an 82% score for Return of the Jedi - quite a bit higher than the score given by Metacritic), a major dip for Episodes I and II, then brilliant scores for Episode VII and Episode VIII before an enormous drop for the recently released Episode IX.

The odd thing, though, is to compare the critic scores to audience scores for the same movies. I had to make the chart because an official one doesn't exist, as far as I know. Behold:

Disclaimer: I am well aware of online trolls who go out of their way to, for instance, trash DC movies on sites like Rotten Tomatoes to make them look bad next to Marvel, or sexist men who give fake reviews to movies like the aforementioned Captain Marvel. However, I believe Rotten Tomatoes has made changes to their site that results in a generally accurate audience score.

What on earth is causing the discrepancy between critics' scores and fans' scores for the three sequel movies? It's the conundrum of our time. Why are critics and fans so divided by these movies?

The Survey: Taking Matters Into My Own Hands

I decided to get to the bottom of this by asking my friends, co-workers and online associates to take a survey to tell me their thoughts after seeing Episode IX: Rise of Skywalker. Nineteen people, including myself, responded. The remainder of this blog will consist of our answers, although, for the sake of what brevity I have left, I will not be including everyone's responses for every single question. I'll just go through and pick out a few of the best and most interesting answers.

In the name of full disclosure, I believe that at least two people were not totally honest in their responses and/or just wanted to give me a hard time. I have completely disqualified one of the responses because they didn't give me a legitimate name and could thereby disregard any sense of accountability for their answers. The other suspicious respondent only gave me a first name, and I think that some of their answers were good, but they started talking a lot about "Reylo" and Finn and Poe toward the end of their survey, and I just couldn't take those responses seriously. With that in mind, I'm going to allow their multiple-choice answers but won't mention any of their survey responses.

Below are the identities of the fine ladies and gentlemen who were kind enough to take time out of their day to fill out my questionnaire. They will be referred to henceforth by the initials following their names.

• Aaron Christensen (SotT)
• Abbie Sugihara (AS)
• Andrea Chapman (AC)
• Braden Pirami (BP)
• Chris Martellaro (CM)
• DJ Mein (DM)
• Estevan Ramirez (ER)
• Jena Allison (JA)
• Kenan Bushati (KB)
• Kyle Eversole (KE)
• Miranda Christensen (MC)
• Nate Haines (NH)
• Rob Larsen (RL)
• Sarah Randall (SR)
• Scott Aylett (SA)
• Suzzanne Bailey (SB)
• Tyler Johnson (TJ)

Finally, before we get into this sucker, keep in mind that nothing is off limits past this point. Full spoilers are ahead of us, and if you haven't seen Episode IX yet, I strongly encourage you to stop reading now. If you choose to continue, that's on you, man, and I can't be held responsible for you ruining the movie for yourself.

Are we ready??

Question 1: Before seeing "Rise of Skywalker," how excited were you for the movie?

• 56% More Excited than a Typical Star Wars movie
• 22% Less Excited than a Typical Star Wars movie
• 17% Just as Excited as for a Typical Star Wars movie
• 5% Not Excited

Question 2: Explain your response to the previous question.

• ER: "It's the end of a nine-film saga. I was really excited to see how it ended."
• SB: "I love Star Wars and am always excited to see what's happening in a galaxy far, far away."
• NH: "I've become disenchanted with the Star Wars saga since the Disney sequels. It's been a slow descent into indifference."
• JA: "It's the end of an incredible story. I was excited and sad."
• SotT: "The Last Jedi SUCKED. SO. BAD."

Fun fact: Seven respondents specifically mentioned that negative experiences with recent Star Wars movies lowered their expectations for the final movie. Here are a couple of the more positive results:

Question 3:  What were your expectations for "Rise of Skywalker"?

• 67% Cautiously Optimistic
• 22% Bad
• 11% Good

Question 4: Did the negative Rotten Tomatoes score scare you at all?

• 33% No
• 33% Unaware of Rotten Tomatoes Score Prior to Seeing the Movie
• 17% Yes
• 17% Indifferent

For the record: Reports released several days before the global release of Rise of Skywalker, including this one from Forbes.com, indicated that Rotten Tomatoes critics were ranking Episode IX lower than the nearly universally disliked Attack of the Clones.

Question 5: Now that you've seen "Rise of Skywalker," how would you rate it?

• 38.9% 8 out of 10
• 33.3% 9 out of 10
• 16.7% 7 out of 10
• 11.1% 6 out of 10

Question 6: Explain your answer to the previous question.

• RL: "I thought it was fun and exciting. I felt there were some pacing issues and plot devices that weren't perfect."
• TJ: "It had some fun moments. However, the plot came out of nowhere. Lots of elements were not explained well or established, such as Rey's abilities and how the Emperor came [back] to life. I did enjoy the movie, overall - just a lot of poor planning was showing through this movie."
• SA: "I like how the 'mistakes' of TLJ were addressed, but wouldn't consider the film to be as good as other films in the saga."
• AS: "For me, I felt like it was a good closure to the series. I was super bummed about Ben's final outcome, but I did enjoy all of the plot reveals. My only complaint is that I felt like it move[d] slowly, then dump[ed] a lot on you all at once, then slow[ed] down again."
• AC: "I think there were a couple of small things lacking, but overall, it was pretty great."
• JA: "It ended the saga nicely. But perhaps a little too nicely? During the final Rey/Ben scene, I was having an internal debate about a woman needing a man to save her, versus a woman sacrificing herself for everyone else. Not sure [what] I'm left feeling, [to be honest]."
• NH: "It was slightly better than bad for me. There were a few scenes that worked, but for the most part it was a jumbled mess that made it clear there was never a plan from the beginning. Disappointing, but not unexpected, considering the trajectory of TFA and TLJ."

Question 7: Who were your favorite main characters? (Select two)

• 38% Kylo Ren
• 27% Poe
• 19% Rey
• 11% Finn
• 3% None
• 2% Palpatine

Characters not receiving any votes: Princess Leia, Chewbacca

Fun fact: "None" wasn't even an option, but a couple people put it anyway.

Question 8: Who were your favorite minor characters? (Select two)

• 25% Babu Frik
• 25% C-3PO
• 19% BB-8
• 13% Lando Calrissian
• 9% Zorii Bliss
• 6% Jannah
• 3% None

Characters not receiving any votes: Rose, General Hux

Fun fact: "None" wasn't even an option, but a couple people put it anyway.

Question 9: Other than Kylo Ren, which characters most redeemed himself/herself after "The Last Jedi"?

• 61% Luke Skywalker
• 17% General Hux
• 11% Poe
• 5% Finn
• 6% None

Characters not receiving any votes: Rose

Fun fact: "Poe" and "None" were not options, but a couple people put them anyway.

Question 10: Did you cry at all during the movie?

• 39% No, but it was close
• 33% No
• 28% Yes

Question 11: What, if any, was your favorite part of the movie?

• BP: "The callback at the end with the twin suns."
• KE: "The lightsaber duel between Rey and Kylo Ren."
• DM: "Rey's flip over Kylo."
• NH: "Rey vs. Ben on Endor, followed up [immediately] with Han Solo. Hands down."
• SotT: "When Kylo Ren called Han 'Dad.' Also really liked finding out that Rey was a Palpatine, not a Skywalker."
• ER: "Han telling Ben, 'I know.'"
• MC: "Babu Frik."
• SR: "When Rey used the Force and told the stormtroopers [to feel] relieved they were there, and Poe's comment ('Does she do that to us?') It's fun, yet a valid concern."
• CM: "When Rey looks to the sky and all the Jedis acknowledge her."

Question 12: What, if any, was the worst part of the movie?

• TJ: "Kylo dying was terrible. He was the best part."
• SR: "Kylo Ren's wet hair. Ew. He's not attractive to begin with, but wet hair made it worse."
• SB: "Finding out Rey was a Palpatine. Why can't powerful Force users come from a family that isn't a Skywalker, Kenobi or Palpatine?"
• SA: "'I'm the spy!' The delivery was awful."
• SotT: "The part where Poe and Rey are arguing about damage done to the Millennium Falcon and BB-8 was pretty annoying."
• MC: "Bird-nose lady."
• AS: "Trying to force a relationship on Poe and Zorii. Also, I had a hard time with Finn always trying to step in and interfere with whatever Rey was doing."
• AC: "Toss-up: Almost-dead Chewie / Zombie Palpatine (ew)."
• JA: "Maybe the dagger being too convenient."

Question 13: Were you satisfied to find out the truth about Rey's family?

• 67% Yes
• 22% No
• 11% Indifferent

Question 14: How did you feel about Kylo Ren's story arc in "Rise of Skywalker"?

• SotT: "I wanted him to die as a villain so badly, but when he called Han 'Dad,' I almost lost it. I thought his story arc was perfect and loved what they did with him."
• CM: "Kylo still killed his father out of hate or confusion, however, if it weren't for him, maybe everyone would have died."
• SR: "He is very complicated. He's bad but he didn't want to kill Rey and ended up saving her. I just don't get him."
• SA: "It was a quick 180. I think this comes back to poor character development."
• AS: "LOVE."
• KE: "I like it. I feel like he's very much exemplary of a Sith, along with Anakin - struggling internally and pushing himself constantly."
• MC: "Loved it."
• NH: "It's the only believable arc with emotional resonance for me. They got sooooo close with Rey, but in the end it fell short for me."
• AC: "I loved it. I wish he would have appeared at the end, though... with Luke and Leia."

Question 15: How did you feel about the way Princess Leia was handled after the untimely passing of actress Carrie Fisher?

• RL: "As good as it could have been. Her dialogue seemed forced, but I was forgiving due to the circumstances."
• TJ: "They did a great job for what they had to do!"
• AS: "I felt like it was handled tastefully, and it was handled well, given the circumstances."
• DM: "Best they could do with what they had."
• AC: "I thought it was done tastefully. It looked pretty real. I loved being able to ourn her character with her screen family."
• NH: "They did the best with what they had. It was a little 'uncanny valley' for me, but mainly because I already knew Carrie Fisher passed. I wonder if the younger generation would even notice if no one told them."

Question 16: How do you feel about the way Emperor Palpatine was utilized in the movie?

• SR: "I thought he was dead, so to see him back was confusing."
• KE: "Awesome, but I really want to know how he survived the fall in the second Death Star. Sith resurrection? Cloning? Or just a macguffin?"
• AC: "Let me eloquently answer this for you: Radsauce. Seriously, it was nasty but so cool."
• ER: "I thought he was great. He was sinister and had a master plan. I want more of him. It felt too rushed."
• RL: "I like how this explains why there are only ever two Sith at a time - the master, who is the sum of all past Sith, and the apprentice who will one day take his place."
• SotT: "Really didn't want to see him come back to life, but realizing the stakes of Rey's decision about whether to kill him was pretty great. I didn't mind his role in this movie at all."
• SA: "It was good, but not as good as RotJ. Honestly, it seemed like a quick way to right the ship."
• BP: "Was OP (overpowered)."
• DM: I mean, given Snoke was wasted, it was ok. Seems like a weird idea to let everyone know you're back and not surprise them. You would think he'd have learned what happens when his lightning hits a lightsaber near his face by now."
• NH: "So dumb. Pretty much negates the original trilogy and what Anakin did after six episodes of story arc."

Question 17: What, if any, was your favorite "fan service" moment in the movie?

• Lots of the respondents loved the cameos of returning characters! The most popular "cameo" mentioned as part of an answer was Harrison Ford's reprisal of Han Solo.
• Other cameos mentioned include Lando, Wedge Antilles, Ewoks and the audio cameos by previous Jedi.

• KB: "What does [fan service] even mean?"
• RL: "The shot with all the ships from other shows."
• SR: "Chewie getting a medallion."
• AS: "Rey and Ben finally kissing."
• SotT: "Luke catching the lightsaber and saying, 'A Jedi's weapon deserves to be treated with more respect.' Take THAT, Rian Johnson!!"

Question 18: Overall, the amount of "fan service" and "retconning" used in "Rise of Skywalker" to make up for controversial aspects of "The Last Jedi" was...

• 50% Acceptable
• 22% Awesome
• 17% No opinion / Indifferent
• 11% Annoying

Question 19: Was "Rise of Skywalker" a satisfactory end to the Skywalker Saga?

• 83% Yes
• 17% No

Question 20: Where does "Rise of Skywalker" rank among the nine "trilogy" movies?

• 61% Middle 3
• 17% Best
• 17% Top 3
• 5% Bottom 3

Fun fact: If you want to chat with some people who thought this was the worst movie of the franchise, just hop on Facebook and head straight to the Comments section of any Star Wars-related post. You'll find 'em.

Question 21: How do you feel about the future of Star Wars?

• 44% Keep it going, but decrease the frequency of movies and TV shows.
• 39% Still going strong! I want more movies and more TV shows.
• 17% I only want more TV shows.

Fun fact: Signs of the Times: Underground wrote a blog about every single episode of "The Mandalorian," which everybody in the whole world loves! Check those out by clicking here.

Question 22: Want to discuss anything else?

• SR: "I also liked the fight scenes with Rey and Kylo Ren in two different places at once. That was pretty cool."
• AC: "I really loved how the movie felt like a love letter to the fans. The idea of redemption and change was displayed so well. Han saying, 'I know,' got me all teary-eyed. I loved the battle scene and seeing everyone show up to fight. Heck yeah! I felt like the kiss between Rey and Ben was unnecessary but I didn't mind it. It seemed more like it should have been a thank-you kiss instead of passion. Also, Kylo looked less like moody, teenage Snape at the end, and that was nice!"
• JA: "I'm now watching Episode VII because I need more Star Wars!"
• KE: "So so so so many loose ends. Especially Jannah and Lando. WHAT."
• SA: "The lesbians!"
• RL: "I need to see it again!"
• ER: "Chewie didn't need to get a medal. If I had a 'groan' moment, that was it."
• SB: "[Aaron's] inability to like The Last Jedi."
• DM: "Dominic Monaghan looked like he just left the set of 'LOST' with his Dharma jumpsuit still on."
• NH: "Way random but it bugs me: the fight with Ben vs. the Knights of Ren would have been more thrilling if the K-of-R actually did something during the movie besides walk around trying to look scary.
  
  Also, I can't stress enough that this movie makes it so obvious there never was a PLAN for the whole trilogy to work -- which just boggles my mind the more I think about it. I mean... Wouldn't you think the FIRST thing to do would be to get everyone in a room and say, 'Ok, guys, THIS is what we're going for from beginning to end. It's got to tie together and make sense.'
  
  Honestly, as controversial as TLJ was, this movie made me wish Rian Johnson would have been the sole director/writer for all three and had a REALLY good editor to stop him from doing stupid casino side quests. [Editors note: I cannot believe I just typed some of those words in that particular sequence. **squirts hand sanitizer**] Out of all the new movies, at least TLJ took risks and built character development. I know RJ is on the naughty list for most fans, but I do think he's a talented filmmaker and writer from his other movies. (Go see Knives Out.) [Editor's note: Knives Out was really good.]
  
  I feel like TFA doomed the trilogy from the get-go, then passed the buck back and forth between writers, and directors screwed it up beyond recovery."
• SotT: "I thought it was really cool to find out that Luke trained Leia after Return of the Jedi. Believe it or not, that actually makes the 'Mary Poppins' scene from The Last Jedi a little bit better. It's not like she magically just used the Force for the first time - she was a full-fledged Jedi. It was also pretty awesome to realize that Rey and Ben were using Luke and Leia's lightsabers for the final fight against Palpatine. Also, The Last Jedi still sucks.

***

Well, there you have it! If you made it this far through the blog, ask Maz Kanata for a medal because your eyeballs just went to war! You deserve it just as much as Chewie did, which, depending on who you ask, might be a whole lot or not at all. I'm not quite sure.

As you can probably tell at this point, Rise of Skywalker was either the greatest movie of the franchise, the worst film of all time, or somewhere in between. It's all very confusing, and I'm not sure we really came to a consensus about anything whatsoever.

If you were not one of the lucky ones who got to contribute to my survey, feel free to let us know how much you loved or hated the movie, or how bland and inconsequential it was for you. I'd love to read your opinions and either chat you up about how great the movie was or formulate a five-step rebuttal about why you're wrong. Leave a comment down below, follow me on Twitter (@atownmania and @sottunderground) or find me on Facebook.

Regardless of what any of us thought, Disney knows that Star Wars is the intergalactic cash cow that just keeps on giving, and they'll milk this baby until the end of time. Whether that's a good thing is... well, I guess that's up to you to decide.

Until next time,

May the Force be with you.

Virtual Roundtable: "Avengers: Infinity War"

There was an idea called the Virtual Roundtable. The idea was to bring together a group of remarkable guest bloggers, to see if they could become something more. To write the blog that we never could...

"Avengers: Infinity War" is arguably the biggest, most-anticipated blockbuster movie in the last decade; Marvel fans have literally waited 10 years for it. It premiered at the end of April and we here at The Underground kindly, generously, benevolently waited nearly two weeks before posting anything about it, as to allow our lovely readers time to get out and see it for themselves. Now that some time has passed and we've all had time to process the far-reaching ramifications caused by the Mad Titan, himself, let's break it all down with a star-studded panel of new and returning bloggers. Before we get down to business, let's meet the aforementioned panel:

Aaron Christensen: Main (and, for all intents and purposes, sole) contributor to SotT: Underground. The only person you know that still likes playing Rock Band. Recently referred to as a "pro online dater."

Suzy Peterson: First-time Virtual Roundtable contributor. Author. Celebrity birthday binge-watcher.

Mickael Stevens: First-time Virtual Roundtable contributor. Poster of funny videos and memes. The artist formerly known as Steve-O.

Austin Christensen: Believe it or not, a first-time Virtual Roundtable contributor. Currently serving the United States Air Force in Taiwan. Lover of sports.

Jonathan Blackham: Yet another first-time Virtual Roundtable contributor. The last remaining Junior Mountie. Probably the nicest person you will ever meet.

Brad Randall: Second-time contributor. Game Night champion. Allegedly works for the most successful real estate company in the world. It's in a magazine - look it up.

Karrie Randall: Also returning for her second Virtual Roundtable. "Stranger Things" mega-fan. Super-mom.

Now that we have familiarized ourselves with the gladiators in this Coliseum of Pop Culture, let's do this thing! But first, be ye warned...

The remainder of this blog will contain MAJOR SPOILERS for "Avengers: Infinity War." If you have not yet seen the movie, and if you have any interest whatsoever in seeing it eventually, please do not continue reading until you've seen it for yourself.

In the immortal words of Judge Mills Lane, "Let's get it on!"

Question 1: How would you rate this movie?

⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐: Aaron, Mickael, Austin, Jonathan

⭐⭐⭐⭐: Suzy, Brad, Karrie

Question 2: What made this movie good or bad?

Suzy: I went in expecting huge, grandiose plot lines and amazing crossovers from all the other movies, which was true in a lot of ways. I loved the character interactions and seeing how far everyone has come. It was everything I was hoping for it to be.

Aaron: I've been experiencing a little Marvel fatigue lately - too many movies, too many characters - makes it hard to keep up. But this was everything I hoped it would be. I didn't feel like any characters really got shafted for screen time and I loved seeing them all come together with a united, mutual goal. What's more, I truly believe that the movie ended on the greatest cinematic cliffhanger of all time.

Mickael: Characters were well-balanced for screen time. Story was engaging. Humor did not overwhelm the serious moments. 

Austin: The ability to include all the characters without making it seem like they were bouncing around. The fact that the heroes actually lost and the villain stayed true to form.

Jonathan: It was the culmination of 10 years of movies (and TV shows).  Up to this point, Marvel has only been adding tons of powered individuals into their movies and, miraculously, they have always been up to the task to save the world.  No casualties among their ranks (except Quicksilver).  Their time ran out, and we are all attached to the characters now.  We're emotionally invested in this, our super heroes.  They cannot fail.  And yet they do.  Where do you go from here?  Perfect message for life.  We all fail.  Where do we go after we fail?

Brad: I felt that, given the high number of characters, they did a good job balancing all of them. I felt that Thanos was fleshed out more deeply than I anticipated, which was a strength to the movie. At times, I felt the story and plot were a bit scattered and that this suffered from the fact that it is the first part of a two-part series. There is a bit of an anticlimactic finish in these types of movies ("Harry Potter and Deathly Hallows: Part One," "Hunger Games: Mockingjay - Part One"). Overall, I really enjoyed it. 

Karrie: I was very impressed by how well they managed such a large amount of very important characters! My only negative critique is there are so many jumbled back-stories that they are still trying to include. It’s hard to keep it all straight!

Question 3: Now that we've been fully introduced to Thanos, what do you think of him?

Jonathan: Thanos is the best antagonist that the MCU could have pitted the Avengers against.  His reasoning for his actions is something you could understand, but the way he solves the problem is what we have problems with.  Thanos isn't doing this for himself; he doesn't want to rule the universe (although that's a byproduct of his actions) -- instead, he wants to keep it going so it can continue to sustain life.

Karrie: Honestly, I feel for Thanos, I believe that he truly believes that what he is doing is right and is helping to save the universe! I disagree with some of his choices, but he is led by his belief! I don’t think he has [truly] evil desires!

Suzy: I like that he's a real character. He doesn't do bad things because he's a bad person. He has an agenda and what's really surprising about him is that he's not entirely wrong. I don't want him to succeed, but he thinks he's trying to help people which is the sign of a well thought out villain, in my opinion.

Brad: I think he is the strongest character in the film and they wanted him to be. Even though he is fierce and aggressive, there is much more humanity to him than I thought.

Mickael: Great villian. He had a interesting motivation. He was powerful and threatening. You also felt for him at times.

Austin: Thanos is hardcore. He’s a nasty dude, but he was true to character throughout the movie.

Aaron: I thought he really needed to hit the ground running in order to make him as big and bad as he had been hyped up to be. They gave him the ol' Kylo Ren treatment ("Go ahead and kill some beloved characters!"), and I'll be honest: when they trolled us with "Thanos will return," I just about gave that movie screen the full-armed flip-off. Screw you, Thanos!

Question 4: Was there anything about the movie or your movie-going experience that you wish would have been done differently?

Brad: I recognize that when you have a movie taking place in lots of galaxies there will be a lot of CGI, but I really appreciate the real-life settings, practical effects and work that is done [without special effects]. I felt there was a whole lot of CGI - and it was mostly used well - but could have used a few more traditional on-location shots.

Jonathan: Thanos' skin color, but I'm not as hung up on it as some outraged fans are.  I would have also loved to have seen the fights for the other infinity stones, but the movie was long enough as it was.

Suzy: The story line was pretty basic. I was not surprised at all by any of the character's actions. It was exciting and I left the theater wondering where it would go next. I think the next movie will be absolutely amazing because we only saw the first half of the story, and they followed their formula to a T. Now we will see what they've got up their sleeves when the second half comes out next year.

Aaron: The only bad thing about my movie-going experience (other than the inevitable handful of obnoxious fans that I had to put up with each of the times I saw the movie) was that I bought Friday night tickets a month ago, with no way of knowing that Game 6 of the Jazz's first-round playoff series would be at the exact same time. But hey, I kept my phone off for 6 hours, came home and watched the Jazz eliminate the Thunder, so we're all good, baby! Go Jazz!!

Karrie: I had a headache during the movie.... but that’s about it! I enjoyed the film much more than I expected!

Austin: I wish I would have first seen it in America.

Question 5: Which moment was the biggest surprise?

Austin: When Thanos snapped his fingers. We knew he had the ability, but it was like, “Oh crap, that really happened.”

Jonathan: I think the final break down of the fateful casualty list was the biggest surprise.  I wasn't surprised by its occurrence (even not knowing the comic story line).  I just didn't know what the sides would be.

Mickael: Red Skull

Aaron: Red Skull. Did not see that coming.

Brad: Loki!!! That was quick and I realized how much I like Loki about the same time I realized he was going to die. 😦

Karrie: Loki’s death. I love Loki!

Suzy: Loki's actual death. Gamora's actual death. Captain Marvel's logo at the end.

Question 6: What was the funniest scene or line of the movie?

Jonathan: Mr. Stark and the wizards' banter.

Suzy: "We have a Hulk." - Loki (You know he's waited 6 years to say that.) The whole interaction between Thor and Star-Lord. The fact that "Groot" is an elective on Asgard.

Austin: Star-Lord copying Thor.

Mickael: Drax admiring Thor's body.

Aaron: Drax: "How long have you been standing there?" "An hour."

Karrie: When Drax thinks he has figured out how to be invisible!

Brad: Drax spoiling Gomora and Quill's emotional moment was brilliant.

Question 7: Were you surprised at how much you liked or disliked any of the heroes?

Aaron: I think my favorite character in this movie was Doctor Strange. I forgot how much I liked him.

Brad: I really struggle with Vision. I don’t feel a connection to him, so I wasn’t sad to see him go.

Jonathan: I'm still not sold on Winter Soldier.  He's Cap's weakness.  I mean, he's a gun in a pinch, but his character has kind of flat-lined for me.

Karrie: I have never loved Vision or Scarlet Witch, but by the end I was very invested in them both!

Suzy: I was surprised at how much I liked it without being very surprised by it all. When stories seem as predictable as this one, I usually feel cheated, but I think it was everything I wanted it to be and now I just have to look forward to the next one.

Question 8: The award for Most Improved Character goes to ____________.

Suzy: I think I'm going to go with Vision on this one. He was so stuck on right and wrong in "Civil War," it was really cool to see him in this movie wanting a life with Wanda and evolving to the point that he knew the only way to protect everyone was to die. I loved the way he talked to Wanda about it, understanding all that she's lost and what this would mean for her in the long run. I loved it.

Austin: Iron Man. He’s obviously one of the most important characters, but he left a bad taste in my mouth from "Civil War."

Aaron: Gamora. In my Avengers Power Rankings blog, Gamora was rated as one of the least important characters. In "Infinity War," she played one of the most important roles in the entire story.

Mickael: Gamora

Jonathan: T'Challa

Brad: Doctor Strange

Karrie: Doctor Strange. I hated his movie but thoroughly enjoyed his character this time.

Question 9: All deaths aside, which two characters would you use for your dream spin-off/team-up movie?

Austin: Iron Man and Black Panther would be awesome to see the gadgets they come up with. Thor and Doctor Strange would be cool because they could protect the universe. Cap/Falcon and Iron Patriot will be protecting the country. Lots of spin-offs. The one I would most like to see is probably Thor and Doctor Strange.

Jonathan: Shuri and Stark would be absolutely hilarious.  Who can out-tech the other?

Aaron: I am all over another Doctor Strange and Iron Man team-up!

Karrie: Hulk and Loki.

Suzy: I would love to see Tony and Dr. Strange in a longer team up. They're so unalike, I love it.

Mickael: Spider-man and Captain America.

Brad: Thor and the "rabbit" and Groot were great.

Question 10: Which death was the most shocking?

Aaron: That entire final sequence was just horrific, but Spider-man's death surprised me the most.

Suzy: Loki's death was really sad, because it was actually real and he died protecting Thor. Also Vision's death - both of them - were heartbreaking.

Austin: Doctor Strange. He kinda played a huge role in this movie and then died. Sad stuff. 

Jonathan: Gamora. I mean, I knew she was going to die, but not in that intimate way. Not as a sacrifice at great cost to Thanos.

Brad: Gamora

Karrie: Gamora

Mickael: Gamora

Question 11: How on earth are they going to undo what Thanos did?

Suzy: That's what I want to know!! I literally have no solution for this! Especially with half the universe completely gone now!

Aaron: I have no idea. But what if the Avengers use that spare gauntlet that Thor found and somehow create their own Infinity Gauntlet? Thanos is so overpowered at this point (largely due to his possession of the reality and time stones) that I don't see any other way for him to be defeated.

Mickael: Something to do with time.

Karrie: The time stone!!!!!

Austin: Get the time stone back and bring people back. Maybe. Who knows?

Brad: Captain Marvel. [Maybe] there is a seventh stone that will wield power in the future.

Jonathan: How many scenarios do you want? Agents of SHIELD have plenty of doorways into that mess already stacking up. ["Agents of SHIELD"] Season 5 has been all about this. This whole season has been about how to change the inevitable ending you know is coming. Time travel, bootstrap paradox, time loops, etc. It's also a good thing that Fury was contacting Captain Marvel, whose upcoming movie in 2019 will feature a younger version of Phil Coulson.

Question 12: Who will kill Thanos in Avengers 4?

Other: Suzy, Austin, Jonathan, Brad

No One: Mickael, Karrie

Thor: Aaron

Question 13: What is your biggest unanswered question?

Austin: Thanos claimed he was going to rest, which we saw with the last scene from the film. He’s already killed half of the universe. How are they going to bring him back?

Jonathan: Why didn't they destroy the time stone instead of the mind stone?

Suzy: How does Tony get back to Earth? Will Pepper still be there to forgive him? How can Spider-man be gone?! Will the Fantastic 4 (the real ones) show up to save the day?

Karrie: Why did Thanos see a young Gamora after the “snapture”?

Brad: Is Gamora trapped in the soul stone?

Aaron: What other kinds of Avengers Ben & Jerry's flavors are there??

Bonus: Give us a #HotTake!

Mickael: Red Skull will get the Infinity Gauntlet.

Jonathan: The fallen heroes will rise again, but we will lose some (some for a second time, and some new deaths), and there's no way around it.

Karrie: Doctor Strange saw the outcome of his actions when he gave Thanos the time stone. I think he did that either because he had to save Iron Man so he could fix it all or this was the one way that they would win!

Aaron: The mind stone may be gone, but the "best parts" of Vision are still alive. He will be resurrected in the next movie.

Suzy: After Tony and Cap are killed by Thanos, Captain Marvel is going to show up with Hawkeye, Ant-Man and Wasp, and they're going to find a magic stone that trumps the infinity stones and stop Thanos.

Austin: Iron Man and Pepper Potts won’t get married.

Brad: Captain America will save Iron Man but die in the process. Iron Man will have a kid and name him Steven.

Bonus: Pick any topic and speak your mind!

Suzy: If everyone is actually dead and they don't find a way to bring them back, what does this mean for the MCU? I know it's shifting because Cap, Tony, and Thor are most likely done, but Spiderman is out, Dr. Strange is also out, most of them are gone. And there's no way to really recover from that.

Aaron: Marvel has got to stop announcing sequels two years ahead of time. They announced post-Avengers 4 sequels for Guardians of the Galaxy, Spider-man and Black Panther months ago, so either this is all an elaborate hoax or we are very clearly going to have a mass resurrection on our hands, come May 2019.

Jonathan: I can't wait for the movies to have guest stars from the TV shows. It's going to be SIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICK. I'd love to see AoS' Graviton, Yo-Yo and/or Ghost Rider fight Thanos - just for kicks, though. I honestly don't know who would win. Even with a fully loaded Infinity Gauntlet.

Brad: I love that, in order to reach Captain America, Iron Man uses a flip phone.

Austin: Really happy with how the Utah Jazz played in the playoffs. The grit we saw from a rookie, a dude who got cut and the 27th pick in the draft is awesome. I love this team.

The Final Word: Is this the best superhero movie of all time?

Yes: Aaron, Mickael, Austin, Jonathan

No: Suzy, Brad, Karrie

***

Well, there you have it! Did you agree? Disagree? Were we spot on or way off-base? Let us know in the comments section below! And if you're in the mood for more Virtual Roundtables, check out our spoiler-laden breakdowns of "Captain America: Civil War" and "Stranger Things: Season 2." As for us, well... we don't feel so good. . . . . .

Virtual Roundtable: "Stranger Things: Season 2"

The second season of Netflix's cult favorite series "Stranger Things" is upon us, and many a nostalgia nerd have already plowed their way through the quick nine-episode run. We here at The Underground have gathered some of the brightest minds this side of the Jordan River to discuss in detail the zigs, zags, ups and upside-downs of this Fall's most binge-worthy show.

Be ye warned and forewarned that forthcoming will be MAJOR SPOILERS for "Stranger Things: Season 2." Do not proceed past this point unless you have either watched the entire season or really don't care.

All right. If you've made it this far, we will assume that you have watched both seasons of "Stranger Things" and will therefore not take time to explain who characters or nor go into great detail laying backstory for the events that take place in the show. You've watched. You know. We're all adults here.

What follows will be a compilation of answers that were given, with no collaboration between participants. Although some of the comments may ultimately wind up edited for length, clarity and/or punctuation and grammar, the content and intent thereof will remain unchanged. Before we get into the nitty-gritty, let's introduce today's panelists:

Aaron Christensen - Main contributor and creator of the "Signs of the Times" blog franchise; former journalist of Deseret News, Salt Lake Comic Con and college radio fame.

Amy Morgan - Two-time Virtual Roundtable contributor, lover of "This is Us," the one and only Christensen sister.

Mandi Russell - Hardcore gamer, cosplayer, double Instagrammer.

Abbie Sugihara - She talked to Aaron at church twice and made the happy mistake of commenting on his recent "Stranger Things" status updates.

Amanda Nelson - Underground contributor, Whovian, frequent world traveler.

Karrie Randall - First-time mom, party game champion, dressed as Barb for Halloween.

Brad Randall - Married to Karrie / Father of Lou, overall cool dude, dressed as Dustin for Halloween.

Suzzanne Bailey - Hilarious coworker, lover of Tom Hiddleston, wearer of amazing t-shirts.

Jena Alison - She says she's a passionate, organized mom. I say she is the granter of Comic Con wishes.

The time has come. Let's get it on!

Question 1 - What did you like most about Season 2? What was the most pleasant surprise?

Consensus: Everybody loves Steve. The character "pair-ups" were also a big hit with the panelists.

Mandi: My favorite thing about Season 2 was the building of characters. With every episode, a new layer was peeled back on each character and we learned more about them in a very natural way. The pairing of characters (Hopper & Eleven, Steve & Dustin) really brought out new aspects to each of their personalities, where we saw them define and realize who they really were. A perfect example was the episode where Steve and Dustin were walking along the train tracks. Steve began to mentor Dustin and was a real and true friend to him - he even let Dustin in on his haircare secrets!

Abbie: The character development for Steve & Hopper. (Talk about a major "glow-up.") Steve and Hop both act as father figures for the younger kids while maintaining their toughness.

Karrie: I loved the "team” that ended up together fighting off the demo-dogs and trying to free Will from the influence of the smoke monster. I loved the addition of Max and I loved the role that Steve played in helping the kids and Joyce. ... This season, I [also] really learned to love Joyce and Hopper and Will!

Suzzanne: I actually liked this season better than the first. I loved how we didn't spend a lot of time developing new characters, and the adventure started off from the word "go." The villain was better, scarier and more sentient than the Demogorgan from Season 1. Most pleasant surprise? The Steve/Dustin bromance. It was everything I didn't know I needed in my life.

Question 2 - What did you like least about Season 2? What was the biggest disappointment?

Consensus: The panelists really didn't like Episode 7, Max and Billy.

Mandi: My least favorite thing was meeting Eight. The gritty/grungy vibe of the mid-80s was great, and I loved what the Duffer brothers were going for, but it dragged and the characters weren’t lovable, let alone likable or relatable. I didn’t care for any of them, and Eight’s relationship with Eleven didn’t seem very deep. I believe that Eight will eventually want to reach out to Eleven and have a more serious connection with her, but I felt that she was using Eleven far more than helping her unlock her potential.

Suzzanne: I don't really think that they needed a human antagonist. The whole Billy storyline was kind of a waste of screen time that could have been given to more Eleven-and-Hopper scenes. ... I do wish we'd seen more Eleven interacting with the boys, beyond the brief scene at the Byers' house and at the Snow Ball.

Amy: It's a tie between the weird love triangle between MadMax, Dustin and Lucas, and "The Lost Sister." I really don't care for Max or Lucas in the first place, so I just thought it was annoying. "The Lost Sister" could have been summed up into 5 minutes of actual important stuff. I was not that impressed with Eight and I hated seeing Eleven as this angsty teenage girl who ended up looking like a gothic teenage version of the Godfather. [Also,] Nancy and Jonathan sleeping together and them getting together with the weird P.I. to take down Hawkins Lab. I hated everything about that episode.

Aaron: Episode 7 was just plain terrible. I understand why they did it, but they could have basically condensed that whole episode into a five-minute Eleven training montage. If I ever re-watch this season, I'm skipping that episode. Also, Greaser Eleven is the worst. Also, that ridiculous will-they/won't-they scene with Jonathan and Nancy (AKA "Jancy"), which that they jacked straight out of "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom."

Brad: Episode 7. I get that they are trying to build on Eleven's character, but I didn't feel that story deserved an entire episode and I didn't feel it pushed the story further.

Karrie: Obviously, Episode 7 was a bit of a bust. I was excited to find out who 008 was and, while I am excited to see where that goes, that episode felt like a waste. I also thought that certain plot points were a little muddled and could have used a little more detail, like when Nancy and Jonathan went to lab and then met with that man who helped them send out the tape to all the newspapers. It just felt like they weren’t quite committed enough to that portion of the story. I also really wanted there to be more justice and closure for Barb and her family!

Abbie: "The Lost Sister" episode was garbage. The additions of Billy and Max also sucked. They provided no extra meaning to the plot. It’s like they were just... there.

Question 3 - Who was your favorite Season 2 character and why?

Amanda: Dustin. That kid has the best one-liners. His humor just makes it.

Brad: I really liked Will. I thought his acting was incredible.

Jena: Eleven. It was nice to see her be a kid.

Mandi: Steve. Selfless, caring and tough. 

Karrie: I loved both Joyce and Hopper. Joyce, because she seemed way less cuckoo in this season and I loved how she fought for her son. I loved that Hopper took Eleven in and how kind he was to Joyce.

Suzzanne: Steve! Talk about character development. He needed more to do, and he's way too good for Nancy.

Aaron: Gotta go with Steve. The man is a baller with glorious '80s hair.

Amy: Steve hands down. He is the best [dang] babysitter around!

Abbie: STEVE HARRINGTON. He had the greatest character development from Season 1 to Season 2. Plus, I’m also 100% here for his hair.

Question 4 - Who was your least favorite Season 2 character and why?

Consensus: Everybody hates Billy the Bully and his fancy through-the-legs layups.

Abbie: Billy. He was garbage. He served no purpose to the season except for giving us Steve’s confused “....Nancy?” when he woke up after getting beaten by Billy.

Amy: Max and Billy. They were crappy additions to the show that the [story] could have easily done without.

Suzzanne: Billy... UGH. He kind of took over Steve's throne as the school 'cool kid/king of the jerks' but I don't think that they really needed it.

Mandi: Max and Eight are tied for least fave. I feel like Max was thrown in as a P.C. necessity and Eight wasn’t at all altruistic - she was very selfish and manipulative.

Aaron: Mad Max and Billy were practically pointless. Honestly, when did Max ever do anything of value, other than illegally driving a car? Also, I didn't know Billy actually had a name until like Episode 5. I just called him "The Kid That Is Always Smoking on School Property."

Jena: The doctor. I thought he was slimy and didn't want him to be "good."

Question 5 - Who is the most underrated character of the series so far?

Brad: Lucas! Or Steve. Love them both.

Amanda: Hopper. His character development is great. I really can't [wait to] see what they do next with him.

Karrie: Joyce. She doesn’t get enough credit for all that she does and has done for Will and the others.

Jena: Joyce. She gets written off as crazy, when she's really the only one who's paying attention.

Amy: Bob. Sure, he was kind of a goofy guy, but he did so much to help the Byers, from being somewhat normal to escaping Hawkins Lab by knowing Basic.

Suzzanne: Dustin. This kid is smart - he knows he needs his paddles for his curiosity voyage! He so many moments of bravery in this season (and a few stupid moments... of course your weird new friend is a baby demogorgan!) He wasn't completely useless without his friends either; he went looking for Mike and, when he couldn't find someone, he recruited Steve.

Aaron: That goofy police officer with the glasses. Did anybody dress up like him for Halloween? That would be a great costume.

Question 6 - Is there a character that you wish would have been killed off? If so, who and why?

Consensus: Brad and Karrie are the kindest of the panelists because they didn't want to kill anyone. Five points to each of them.

Abbie: Billy and/or MadMax.

Jena: The doctor. I don't see a reason for keeping him alive actually.

Aaron: I thought for a second that they were going to have to kill Will. That would have been crazy. Other decent options: Nancy, Max and Billy.

Amanda: I'm not a huge fan of Will. I feel like he is just there to further the story along, but I have no connection to him.

Mandi: Max. She is everything i hate in female protagonists: cocky, pushy and mysteriously better than anyone else at something. I’m sure she’ll be helpful next season, but they need to tone down her “holier than thou” attitude.

Amy: Either Max or Billy because they are the worst. Or the stupid P.I. conspiracy theory guy. He was just a part of the series to get Nancy and Jonathan to sleep together.

Suzzanne: Actually... Jonathan. He's a sweet kid, and I do believe that he would die for his brother. Something about him creeps me out, though. I think I'd like him a little better if he did some great self-sacrificing gesture so his baby brother could have a normal life. Is that mean? Maybe.

Question 7 - Was there anything you wish would have happened in Season 2 that didn't come to pass?

Amanda: I wanted the shadow monster to come out of the Upside Down!

Suzzanne: I wanted more Will. He was the such a central character in Season 1 and he wasn't featured a whole lot. I wanted to get to know him a little better.

Karrie: Some other part of Barb's story. I’m not sure what they could have done... but I️ would have liked to see something..

Mandi: I wish we could have seen more of the Upside Down. Are there any good or redeemable creatures there (like Dart?), or are they all inherently evil?

Abbie: Part of me is still waiting for Joyce and Hop to hook up.

Aaron: I was really hoping there would be a scene at some point where Joyce came home to discover an unconscious boy on her floor and a dead alien in her fridge.

Question 8 - Who or what is most to blame for the calamities that befell Hawkins, Indiana, in Season 2, and why?

Karrie: Technically, Eleven opened the gate. But she was doing that to try to save herself. So really, it’s the labs fault, and Papa's.

Amanda: Eleven. I mean she started the whole thing. The season connected completely to season one. Although, if not for Eleven there probably wouldn't be a show, so yeah.

Abbie: As much as I love her, probably Eleven. She opened the gate at the end of season 1, and by it staying open, the mess from the upside down seeped into Hawkins.

Aaron: Eleven, originally, but in Season 2, I put a lot of the blame on Dustin for keeping (and feeding) Dart. You know what? I blame the Three Musketeers!

Mandi: Bob! I loved him, but knew it wouldn’t end well the moment he told Will to “fight” the shadow monster.

Amy: Bob, because he told Will to stick up to the Mind Flayer/shadow monster. Dustin, because he raised a demo-dog. The pumpkin farmers for creating so much drama. Nancy because she's the worst. Above all, I blame the Mind Flayer for everything that happened in Hawkins.

Jena: The lab. Because, government.

Suzzanne: The Cold War.

Brad: I'm sure there's a better answer here, but I'm guessing Donald Trump is somehow behind it all.

Question 9 - #JusticeForBarb or #JusticeForBob?

Question 10 - Who should Nancy date?

Question 11 - How did you feel about Episode 7: "The Lost Sister"?

Question 12 - Whose powers would you rather have?

Question 13 - What is the best song featured in Season 2?

33.3% "Every Breath You Take" - The Police

22.2 % "Runaway" - Bon Jovi

11.1% "Should I Stay or Should I Go" - The Clash

11.1% "You Don't Mess Around with Jim" - Jim Croce

11.1% "Rock You Like a Hurricane" - Scorpions

11.1% "Whip It" - Devo

Question 14 - Is Stranger Things the greatest TV show of all time?

Amanda: Close. It just has so much to love about it. Great characters and plot, but I don't know if anything can beat "The X-Files."

Jena: Not quite, but it's still fantastic. "Doctor Who" and "LOST" are at my top.

Suzzanne: Greatest show of all time? No. An amazing show that has mass appeal and is wildly entertaining? Abso-freaking-lutely. This show has great appeal because it is a mix of sci-fi, suspense, comedy, mystery, and nostalgia. It's just great. The re-watch value is high, and it gives you a lot to talk about.

Mandi: It's my favorite new show, for sure. It’s instantly nostalgic, has iconic references and pop culture moments, but is unique and not at all kitschy or overplayed. I really love how they develop the characters and make it just creepy enough to really suck you in.

Amy: I don't know about "all time," but I do think it's a great TV show. It's kind of a thriller, but it's funny enough to keep me coming back for more. I also love the '80s theme! The songs, the style, the glasses, the Eggos... It's all so perfect!

Brad: No. It is not. But it is a wonderful popcorn binge-worthy entertainment choice that is a hit with many teens and adults alike. When does that happen?

Abbie: Debatable. I love it, but I also know people who don’t, usually because Sci-Fi isn’t something they get into. All things considered: 11/10 would recommend to anyone.

Karrie: Yes.

Aaron: I give it 8/10 stars, but no. The greatest TV show of all time has already been made... and its name is "LOST"!

Question 15 - Make a bold prediction about Season 3 or beyond.

Mandi: I think the Mind Flayer has its sights set on Eleven. My guess is it realized her strength and it will possess her.

Jena: We see more of the lost siblings.

Brad: I think Season 3 expands [the story] outside of just Hawkins. Hawkins is the central area, but bigger powers get involved and more havoc unleashes.

Amanda: The earth is destroyed and they all get stuck in the Upside Down.

Abbie: As much as I hated the "Lost Sister" episode, I’m hoping that it serves a greater purpose than some minor character development for El. I think there’s potential for something great with her story.

Karrie: Billy is going to end up a good guy. Joyce and Hopper end up together.

Suzzanne: The Mind Flayer uses another telekinetic kid to open a gate and it comes for the town of Hawkins. Eight is brought into the story by Eleven to try to help trick the Mind Flayer and save the day.

Aaron: Somebody finally gets the guts to say, "You know what? I'm moving to Omaha."

Amy: [HOT TAKE ALERT!!!] Hopper and Dustin are going to be the new hosts for the Mind Flayer. (They both got stuff in their mouths in the tunnels and it may be something that causes an infection.)

BOOM! There you have it! What do you think? Do you agree? Disagree? Did we miss anything you wanted to discuss? Sound off in the comments section below. But not on Facebook. No, no. Not on Facebook for a couple more weeks, lest your friends unleash fury upon you for ruining Episode 7 for them.

See ya on the flip side. 🙃


For more "Stranger Things," check out our Season 2 Power Rankings by clicking here.